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>> and a few moments, hearing on controlling college tuition costs. hamas and two hours, look at the use of domestic drums. republican senator tom coburn on the anti-tax pledge signed by many gop members of congress. >> it was about those men and women who are almost mortally injured and more. who because of the huge advances that have been made and medical
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trauma treatment over the last 10 years, now they are being saved. an incredible number of being saved. almost everybody who follows on the battlefield is being saved. i wanted to write about what life was like for these people. i started out with the question having seen some people who were pretty, pretty gruesomely maimed , wouldn't it be better off if they were dead? .we wish that they were dead? >> the senate education committee heard from college presidents today about ways to control tuition costs.
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educators are michigan, iowa, indiana and florida testified from us two hours. >> senate committee on health education committee and labour pensions will come to order. as we approach the start of the academic year, many students and families are struggling to pay the estimated cost of college. during the difficult economic times, restoring tuition and shrinking real incomes are making college less and less affordable. over the past decade, state and local funding for student struck by 25% while tuition and fees at four-year public schools increased by 72%. student debt crossed the $1 trillion mark and surpass credit card debt for the first time ever. the news media are rife with
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stories of christian student debt, including graduates with $120,000 debt, making $225 a week working two jobs. for millions of young people, they are putting the american dream on hold or out of reach. a national survey of recent graduates releases pax spring by 40% delayed making a major purchase like a home or a car because of college debt. about a quarter had decided to put off continuing education were admitted with relatives to save money. americans age 25 to 34 now make up a little more than a quarter of all home buyers, the lower share in the past decade. while there is no need to save more of these grim statistics today but the message is clear. colleges increasingly out of reach for students from working families in lower income families. our nation is glowing ground and having a well-educated workforce that can can eat in the global
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economy. one of my top priorities has chaired the committee is to address the college affordability crisis and try to find ways to help curb the ever-growing financial barriers to college. this is the second half committee hearing this year focusing on affordability as with the previous hearing in february of want to move beyond the severity of the problem. our focus will be on institutions that are breaking the business as usual to implement commonsense strategies and practices, innovations and initiatives to improve college affordability. today's panel emphasizes efforts at the institutional level prevents successful, and printing costs for colleges and students, while improving student access and student success. these innovations can help inform our committee's work in designing federal policy and may be worthy of being replicated
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and scaled up to help america regain and retain its global leadership. we'll also hear expert insights into how tuition pricing and financially policies can promote affordability. how do some schools take an aspirin market operations to find efficiencies through savings can be translated into minimal or no tuition increases and more effective student supporters? our schools working with students and families to make sure they are making sound, financial decisions and accessing all aid available to them? our innovative leaders in academia realigning and reprint in operations? how are some schools realizing gains in retention and completion while bringing down costs per student? how do some schools maximize financial aid resources by targeting aid to students with the most financial need? in short, how can colleges and universities make it a priority to string and postsecondary
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access and reduce success of students from lower and middle income families and state cuts, growing costs and increasing cause for better responsibility outcomes. so i look forward to working with distinguished members, senator ansi and colleagues on both sides to ensure that a college education remains affordable and within reach for all americans regardless of background. with that, i invite senator ansi for closing remarks. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'm glad we're having this hearing and i appreciate the outstanding panel. i appreciate the extensive testimony. i not only regret that she'll have to kind of reduced as we can stay within the timeframe so we'll have time for questions, to which you provided already is extremely helpful and said not only will have this distinguished panel, but also the former president of the university of tennessee serving
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on this committee. he's been suggesting ways for a long time that colleges could solve some problems and we could quit laying burdens on the colleges. a thank you, mr. chairman for having this hearing. as we discussed, colleges become too expensive and showed no signs of becoming cheaper anytime soon. at this trend does not change will be also possible to achieve the president's challenge to again become first in the world of college attainment. many would say the solution lies with us, but no progress will be made if institutions don't first lead the way exciting ways to cut costs and save students money. i know this is possible because today's witnesses are doing just that. in recent years each has been faced with the challenge of doing more with less for a states that have fallen and the demand for higher education has
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increased at each of these educators has responded through thoughtful budgeting and cost cutting that has enabled institutions to continue successfully serving students without sacrificing educational quality. i hope that what we hear today will be heard by others and will serve as a model for how institutions of higher education can start making changes now. with this in mind, i recognize the congress also has responsibility to help over the last three years. genetic changes have been made to help mitigate cost of the college for a greater number of low-income students. these changes while well intentioned of that to persistent in putting problems in polygraph program, including $6 billion funding gap now projected for fiscal year 2014. the spending caps have been regularly tracery series about how changes to federal student aid programs in annual appropriations bills by these changes successfully generated sufficient savings to maintain the pell grant in the short
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term, the expense of others on middle-income students that did nothing to avoid future funding gaps. therefore you urge the committee to begin addressing long-term sustainability of palestine are rather than later. as we learned earlier this year with respect to student loan interest rates, waiting will only result in another costly last-minute short-term solution. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator ansi. we will not let tori panel of witnesses. we have an exceptional panel of witnesses with us today. i want to thank you offered being here today and sharing expertise. i'll go down and introduce our panel and then we'll start with dr. heller and work through. i'll start with dr. don heller coveting of the college of education at michigan state university since january. previously dr. heller served as rector of the center for study of higher education at penn state university and also had a
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faculty appointment university of michigan. he's a loudmouthed expert in higher education finance and economics, especially pricing and his work has been strictly reported on by the media. next we'll hear from dr. stephen dr. stephen -- stephen leath friend my alma mater, iowa state university. he took the reins where he spent many years as a faculty member, research program later in high-level administrative with university of north carolina system in the carolina state university. he currently serves on the iowa stand advisory council is a member of the greater des moines committee capital crossers implementation committee. i know the entire isu community is excited about dr. leath's arrival of shows gross signs for
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great things for isu in the state of iowa. since he spent so much of his life in north carolina but yield to my good friend senator from north carolina for purposes of recognition. >> mr. chairman, thank you. it's tough when you take the chairman's witness and asked to recognize him introduce him, but let me say to my colleague, steve leath has a remarkable record within the north carolina university system. not only has he served in numerous capacities in his field of agriculture. steve led an effort by the university system in the public private hardship to create the largest research campus in the world for the study of human nutrition. it's truly a model of success for public private partnerships, not limited to the university system has six academic campuses on the research campus park.
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it has equipment that only -- it is the only facility of the world that has some of the equipment that they currently have. says steve has had an unbelievable history of increasing the grants and research programs within the university system, which has led the north carolina university system to be one of the most impressive research organizations in the country. he has also pioneered, what i believe one of the most important private partnerships and will be a model for others to try to replicate around the world. mr. chairman, he was a graduate of pennsylvania state university and the masters at the university of delaware and doctorate in plant pathology from the university of illinois. i can't think of a person with a better background than one of your esteemed institutions. thank you peered >> thank you very much, senator
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byrd. dr. tim murdoch, president of tallahassee community college before coming to tallahassee community college dr. murdock worked in law enforcement and criminal justice, serve 30 years in the united states air force reserve. elected to the board of the florida association of colleges and universities tumultuous legislative agenda for the upcoming school year. next we hear from thomas jay snyder, president of ivy tech community college in indiana. mr. snyder came to ivy tech in 2007 after a successful career as a business executive, including time at general motors and most recently as president and ceo of dell cobra and international. a recognized leader in advanced manufacturing and alternative energy, mr. sanders company participated in the introduction of the first u.s. produced hyperdrive. the chronicle of higher education named him as one of seven presidents making a difference nationwide. the final witness, and dr. carol
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twigg at the center for academic transformation. that her twigg using information technology he effectiveeffective ly to transform teaching in higher education. prior to sending an cat in 1999, she was a vice president of edgy, an association of and universities diverted to use technology pair she served as associate vice chancellor for technologies for the state university of new york, soon enough of many academic administrative positions at suny empire state college. as i said, we have a very coming very distinguished panel. all your testimonies will be made part of the record in their entirety. we'll start with dr. heller. he could set up your testimony and five or seven minutes or so, the clock says five. if you go a little overcome and not worry too much, but i know a
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lot of senators wanted to engage in equality with all of you. so if you summarize your testimony, i'd appreciate it. we'll start with you, dr. heller. >> chairman harkin, thank you for the opportunity to address you in the critical issue affecting our nation. i come to you today having conducted research on financial aid, tuition pricing policies and impact on college access for over 15 years and not as a representative of michigan state university. as you're aware, prices and universities have skyrocketed. over the last two decades, private institutions have grown more than three times faster than inflation and more importantly three times faster than median family income in our country. the purpose of my testimony today is not to examine the reason behind racing prices, but discuss the government of colleges and universities can do to ensure college remains accessible across units. my remarks are focused on what we can do to promote low and
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moderate income families because it is these students who were on the margins of attending college and needs we need to focus on if we are to achieve, senator harkin mentioned president obama's goal of returning the united states to world education. for poorer students come with a sticker or the posted price of college is what drives their perception of what it cost to attend. in a world of perfect information about prices and financial aid, students would be able to accurately calculate the true net price they face. but this fantasy world does not exist. the world of higher education finance is a mysterious place for most of the students people the department of education from higher education institutions have taken important steps to disseminate better information about initially, there is still much that needs to be done. the hundreds if not thousands of studies that have been conducted on financial aid will tell us what we have to do to ensure college participation for the students with financial need.
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because they base their college going decisions on sticker prices, financially programs need to be simple, easily accessible and provide information early in students live so they can make good decisions about preparing for college academically and financially. we also know that grants are much more effective in promoting college participants in our student loans. poor students have been shown to be more averse to borrowing than wealthier peers and will often choose to enroll only part-time and worked more hours, and behaviors that are detrimental to completing a bachelor's degree program. 30% of the grants awarded by state and 55% of institutional grants are awarded without any form of means testing. we need to encourage states and universities to focus their support and students with financial need. higher education institutions need to ensure they are doing all they can to keep tuition prices in check and i know my colleagues on this panel will be talking about that.
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some observers have argued federal financial aid serves little purpose than to provide an dentist or institutions to raise prices and capture a comment but there is no credible evidence to support this proposition . during the administration of george w. bush, the department of education published a highly respected study on tuition price increases and what caused them. if i'm the primary driver of tuition price increases in public institutions were over three quarters have earned a graduate student students attend college is a change in state funding i states invest less money in higher education institutions respond by raising prices. the study found no relationship between the availability of federal and state grants and the ensuing tuition price increases in either public or private not-for-profit institutions. institutions raise prices have an obligation to ensure that they increase their own financially programs to hold dunes. for example, last year our state
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cut michigan state university's appropriation by 15% on our board raise tuition 6.9% to compensate in part for these cuts. but the board also increased our own institutional grants eight by 10% with 83% of these great dollars for students with financial needs. this is an example of what institutions need to do with their own financially programs. while pell grants received bipartisan support from congress, one problem with the program is its maximum awards have not kept pace with the increase in tuition prices. so i encourage you to restore the purchasing power of the pogrom. a second problem was posed no students are not aware of the grants until late in their senior year of high school. to receive a financial aid offer from an institution only then they know what kind of green still be receiving. it's too late to help students deciding earlier in their lives that they can afford to attend
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college. to address this problem, i strongly encourage you to find a small provision in higher education opportunity act called the early federal poker commitment demonstration program. this innovative program to test the efficacy of the word poker is to eligible students in the eighth grade. by awarding grants to students in middle-school they would have used four years of high school to prepare academically, socially and financially to attend college. the demonstration program was modeled on the state of indigenous 21st century scholars program would provide a guaranteed middle-school students on free or reduced lunch that the state will pay all of their tuition at any public institution in the unit. this demonstration program authorized by the higher education opportunity act but not yet funded would be a modest effort and i encourage you to find and implement it so we may learn how to learn pell grants even more effective than they already are today.
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i will close by thanking you once again for the opportunity to address this committee and i would be happy to take your questions after the remaining witnesses had testified. thank you. >> to directory much, dr. heller. dr. leath, please proceed. >> at morning i thank you for the opportunity to testify today. had the honor of being a sitting president of iowa state university, i was publicly and great university. i mention this because in washington and throughout the nation we are celebrating the 150th anniversary of the moral act, the late great university is an idealist is the first state in the nation to accept a good higher education accessible affordable for the working classes, which is very relevant to what we are discussing today. that is the ramp of the rising cost of attending college in the debt load as many young people carry whether they graduate or not. i like many do in this room had
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to work should pay for my education. i attended three public universities and pursued by three degrees. i work two jobs throughout college to graduate without dead. it is the best investment i ever made in with that in mind, i want to make his opening statement that i hope we can all agree on, that higher education is a good investment for this nation. our nation's place in the world economically and later in social and humanitarian issues depends on having a highly educated workforce and citizenry. the knowledge driven economy, jobs are increasingly linked to application of new knowledge and marketplace and individuals getting a well-paying secure job is highly dependent upon continuing education beyond high school. not only earnings higher for people with education beyond high school but unemployment rate is significantly lower. this means we must continue to make higher education accessible to all who wish to pursue it and be accessible means been affordable without being burdened by unmanageable debt,
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which unfortunately is the case for many students today. this is an especially important issue for us at iowa state because the state of iowa has the word highest average student debt load in the nation. we are working to lessen the debt load for students by using aggressive four-part approach. i would like to talk about that briefly appeared the first part is holding down costs. we have responsibility as presidents of universities to do everything to reduce overhead for education we provide. everything from administrative and support positions. to the state budget cuts and responsibility should driver costs lower and we've eliminated hundreds of positions and gain substantial efficiencies by combining consolidating colleges, departments are reorganizing offices and finding more cost effective ways to provide services such as student e-mails. we are now tens of millions of dollars annually thanks to these
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measures were proud to mission is now the lowest of all universities that are pure prayer. the second part of our approach is to provide better financially counseling and financing options for students and families. our financial award notice now includes the department of labor current indebtedness and how much their payments will be after graduation based on borrowing. the notice of the size loans are optional and encourages the use of other methods to pay for education. we also help our students make better financial decisions. i used it as one of five major universities in the nation a full-service financial counseling clinic for students. the third part of our effort was making students find pathways to a college degree. the key to this approach is working with community colleges. one fifth of our new students that are transfers from community colleges and the condo s. and having earned colleges.
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both passed the students graduation and reduced output. at iowa state now we have established articulation agreements with every community college in the state of iowa and not for admissions partnership program in which community college students plan to continue education at iowa state can do will enroll at the university. the fourth part of our effort is revenue streams other than tuition to support our academic mission. the precipitous decline really needs to stop. in 1981 in iowa, state appropriations cover 75% of the cost of the resident students tuition and education. last year that figure dropped to 36%, less than half of what it was in 1881. fortunately see the modest increase in the legislature so we are optimistic of the downward trend may have slowed or stopped.
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the federal government also has an important role to play. polygraphs have long been a part part of finance of the students education, especially lower cost like to access. poker is seen to keep place an ipod commerce's recent efforts for the 2013, 2014 academic year. holding on interest rates on student loans is critical to making higher education more affordable and again i applaud recent efforts in doing so. we in the institutions have to do more to help students pay for education. iowa state completed a major campaign that brought in $167 million in commitments and gas. a quarterback, it $236 million for student scholarships. most goes into endowment. to put that in perspective, band great university like iowa state increased from $9 million a year in $204,221,000,000 last year.
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soon will be allowing aggressive new fundraising campaign to be focused on student scholarships. i would say overall thanks to institutions like these in federal programs, scholarships and grants has increased nationally over the past decade by 10%. as a result, total borrowing by students and parents is 10.4% less than a decade ago. these are good trends, but more needs to be done because it still unmanageable for many. we didn't get into this dilemma overnight. it's taken decades of cost increases, state decreases in funding and poor financial decision-making to reach this critical debt level. we won't get out of this overnight either. it's going to take a long-term multifaceted approach with all stakeholders working together can the federal government, colleges and students can make real progress to making college more affordable than it's been a long time. thank you very much and they can all be happy dancer any
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questions. >> thank you, dr. leath. >> thank you, mr. chairman. distinguished members of the committee come to thank you for inviting me. i represent a comprehensive community college in the capital city of florida, serving over 15,000 students and i appreciate the opportunity to share with you the actions that are college to maintain affordability of access to the american dream. let me begin by saying i believe we are an example of the fact that college can be affordable without reducing quality. this year following the florida legislature's decision to fund colleges that a continuation level, we show civil tuition constant despite being given authority to increase tuition up to 5%. our decision to shoot a whole tuition the same level as last year is a strong statement of what our trustees in college leadership value. we value access to higher education and we believe access is only real for those who can
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afford it. keep in our tuition for a full year of college at $2304. we are one of the most affordable institutions of higher education in the country. we are one of the most affordable institutions of higher education in the country. in fact, in 2010 and 2011, including fees are not price was 36% lower than the national average for two-year public institutions. but in the state of florida were among the most affordable of the community and state colleges and tuition and fees are roughly half those in state universities for the first two years of college. our tuition has not negatively impacted our quality work product committee. according to community college, the top 100 associate degree producers listing for 2012. tcc ranks fourth nationally among two-year institutions and awarding aa degrees. for associate degree is awarded to african-american students, we are proud that we ranks sixth
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nationally. or also about the retention and completion rates and we have a significantly higher percentage of students who transfer to four-year institutions from the state average of colleges in florida. i call colleges, our first strategy is to keep tcc affordable by keeping our costs low and i certainly don't want to minimize that has those representatives appear will speak to that issue. the one thing i'd like to talk about is where delivery of great promise in an area of efficiency and academic planning and execution that helps students enter, remain and complete college. i believe that holds perhaps as much promise in keeping college affordable as our efforts in the administrative efficiencies. but there is still much to learn. ..
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we create individualized learning plans that assure they take the right course is to achieve a career in academic goals and of the 600 -- excuse me, of the 6713 students in fall of 2011 with less than 18 college credits, 85% had a complete plan and 90%, a career interest. we engage in continuous course redesigned to improve success rates and help students move
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through college. we focus on the top 10 highest enrollment classes and gateway courses to achieve the greatest impact of student success. we believe the results of our efforts in terms of academic efficiencies is that our students are in their degrees in a relatively timely manner. among two-year public institutions nationwide, our graduation rate within three years is 10% higher than the national average. i provided much more information in my written testimony on a number of these and other initiatives. mr. chairman, ranking member and distinguished members of the committee i look forward to any questions you might have. >> thank you very much dr. murdaugh. now we turn to mr. thomas snyder. welcome, please proceed. spain mr. chairman, ranking member enzi and distinguished committee members ivy tech is
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the statewide college serving 200,000 students, 23 campuses, 100 learning centers. i'd like to start by thinking this to me for its leadership in maintaining low student rate interest rates. the millions of community college students who attend their institutions appreciate the continuation of these low interest rates for the coming year. i also want to thank the members of of the committee especially you mr. chairman, for your support of pell grants. community colleges have a strong partnership with the federal government and pell grants is there particularly critical to the students attending our institutions. pell grants and low-interest rates are only parts of the college cost concerns of our students and their families. we must have low-cost, high-quality options for individual students, the economy and our nation's competitiveness as a whole. as a former industry executive i have watched the companies have gained shares of businesses by providing high-quality products at low cost.
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i've witnessed the emergence of toyota and the japanese auto industry. the hyundai and the korean car industry and now china with most popular car surprisingly, a buick. this is a business model that is highly competitive and outcome and value-driven, customer focused and in the relentless pursuit of lower cost. what i found was something quite different. our grand state subsidies combined with routine increases in tuition. a revenue model that outpace inflation by significant amount with little focus on actual cost. when i joined it be tech in the summer of 2007 higher education did not look like a sustainable business model. because of that we make quality inefficient and started to reduce internal costs and improve outcomes. let me share some examples. due to the single bookstores for all of our campuses, cap the number of textbooks required for on line and courses.
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when unified bookstore with greater purchasing power has translated into fewer and less costly textbooks for our students. a centralized purchasing system led by a single executive, statewide contracts in areas like computer, ip networks, furniture, copiers, telecommunications and health care. this he rejoined the state of indiana to have a single prescription management program for all state employees including higher education. we are simplifying our registration of financial process for students, perhaps like your own experience when you had to go to six or seven different offices to enroll in school. we are building a one-stop system that allows her students to go to one place and do everything. saving money time for the students. on the academic said side we launched accelerated programs called eight sap. students can get a two year transferable degree in and one year of attending five days a week or 11 consecutive months. the e. initial completion rates
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are 75%, three times the national average for community colleges. we created one of the largest on line offerings reaching almost half of our students. 80,000 students taking an on line course during the year. we are credentialed and widely high school faculty across indiana. dual credit students now exceed 25,000. students, saving parents more than $12 million in tuition costs because they are taking courses in high school. we also work with their state legislature to ensure that credits a better transfer and we to look at florida is a real role model which we hope to emulate. we have more work to do in this area. let me close by giving you these facts. in the past few years, with the savings we have generated, the actual cost for full-time students at ivy tech has dropped in real dollars since 2008. affordability is today's most important question. the cost in the statement of
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society has about -- far outstripped not only inflation but the income growth of most americans. the concern i have for my home state is the sad that the date for your residential experiences out of reach for half of the students. community colleges in response to this affordability crisis, we are focused in the past on low-cost and open access. we now shift to a completion agenda while maintaining our low cost. we have become a critical part of the affordability solution and ivy tech is committed to that goal. thank you very much. >> thank you mr. snyder. dr. twigg, welcome. >> mr. chairman and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify. i am president and ceo of the national center for academic transformation, an independent nonprofit organization founded in 1993. the center's mission is to demonstrate how effective use of information technology can both
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improve student outcomes and reduce instructional costs. we focus on undergraduate registration. everyone seems to agree that the price of higher education is too high. as dr. heller has pointed out commission price increases to the public institutions -- but the fact is regardless of who pays what proportion, states, the federal government are students and their families, the overall cost of higher education has risen well beyond reason. without improvements in the overall productivity of higher education, these costs and the associated prices will continue to rise. unlike other industries where information technology has been used to change the way we do business, to reduce costs while increasing quality of service, higher education by and large has not been able to do so and i say this could be done in higher education as well. for the past 13 years our center
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has worked in partnership with more than 200 colleges and universities, demonstrating how course redesign uses technology can change the way they do business to achieve both quality improvements as well as dramatic reductions in cost. altogether we have produced more than 150 large-scale redesigns, which impact literally hundreds of thousands of students each year. what are the results that we have achieved thus far? >> yes course redesigns have reduced the structural costs by 37% on average. the savings ranging from a low of 9% to a high of 77%. collectively these redesigned courses reduce the cost savings of about $15 million a year. now reducing instructional costs by 37% in higher education is by itself a significant achievement especially when just about everyone in higher ed says he can be done but what about quality?
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each of the participating organizations has conducted a rigorous evaluation of student learning, comparing the outcomes for traditional ways of teaching to the redesigns teaching methods. the results of those evaluation shows similar learning outcomes have improved in 72% of the redesign with the remaining 28% showing learning equivalent to traditional formats. other positive outcomes include increased course completion rates, improved retention and increase student satisfaction with the new mode of instruction. i wanted to say a bit more about these redesigned. most of these redesigned projects focus on large enrollment introductory courses. why did we choose such a focus? the reason is because undergraduate enrollment in the united states are concentrated heavily in only a few academic areas. in fact, just 25 more generate 80% of all enrollment at
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community college and the same 25 courses generate 35% of four-year institutions. which translates to about 42% of all undergraduate enrollments. consequently these 25 courses consume a substantial amount of institutional resources. in addition completion of these courses is critical for students arrest towards a degree, but failure rates in many of these courses which range from 15% at our research universities to 30 to 40% at our comprehensive institutions and are as high as 50% at our community colleges, can contribute heavily to overall institutional dropouts between the first and second year. so making improvements in these key critical courses has a direct impact on student retention and on-time degree completion. we have worked with all types of institutions, research universities, comprehensive community colleges, private institutions in all areas of the
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country to demonstrate that these techniques can be used across the ward in higher education. we have also worked at in all undergraduate disciplines, demonstrating the redesign is applicable to all disciplines. my written testimony discusses in detail the techniques we have used to achieve these accomplishment. but i wanted to emphasize three key ideas in our redesign methodology. the first is that the redesign move students from passive learning, students sitting and listening to a lecture while someone is talking at them which is the norm in most freshmen courses and often the cause of high failure rates, to a much more active engagement in learning. the second is coming to these redesigns uses high-quality interactive instructional -- where appropriate in the learning place so faculty members are tasked with performing offloaded to the software that enables them to deal with more students in more directly with students. and then finally the redesign
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process methodology encourages college's faculty and administrators to think outside the box if you will, to sit down and examine who does what and why it and decide where they can make changes that lead to improved student learning and reduced instructional costs. and i would be happy to answer any questions that you may have. >> thank you very much dock or subor. i listen to a few of those lectures when i was in school. >> did you give any? >> thank you all very much. dr. heller we will start with you. your testimony explains a better way to encourage access to completion is to focus on need-based aid. two days ago "the new york times" reported the percentage of students receiving merit aid grew so rapidly from 1995 to 2008 that by 2008 it was equal to the percentage of students
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receiving need dazed. they also studied in public adversities despite state budget cuts, continue to offer merit aid to attract high achieving students without considering their financial need. again, can you describe what we can do to encourage schools to use their limited resources on more need-based aid and why it's important to do so since you mention in your testimony that 30% of grants by states and 55% of states by institutions have no means testing. so why is it important and what can we do to encourage them to focus more on need-based? >> well, senator harkin if we are going to achieve president obama school, and this is an just president obama's goal, there are many organizations that have established a goal try to increase post-secondary payment rates but if we are going to do that we have to focus on the students who are the margins of going to college and this is prominently low and moderate income students. students from upper, middle
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income families, we know from the data that they are going to college and are generally successful and once they are there, they donate assistance from the federal government or state governments in the form of merit-based grants of focusing the financial aid particularly grants on the students will have the biggest bang for the buck whether we are talking about federally, stated or institutionally to have a comp is the goal of increasing the payment rates. simply subsidizing students who would have gone to college and he wasted going to get any more college graduates for the nations of this is why the emphasis on financial needs testing as a way of awarding grants is so critical and "the new york times" article was absolutely right. if you go back to the 19 '90s you have less than 10% of state grants and about one third of institutional grants awarded based on merit without means testing and now his flip so well of over half -- >> why the big shift? >> i think there are a number of reasons. a big reason is the competitiveness among institutions and institutions that realize that they use their financial aid not to ensure that
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poor students can make it to college but instead to try to attract high achieving, high achieving academic students which unfortunately in this country come predominantly from upper income families because of the relationship between social class and performance of the kind of tests used to award merit grants whether it's the s.a.t. or it a.c.t. or high school grades. because of that relationship and use merit rather than means testing you will give more money to higher income students and i think that has been a big driver for institutions getting into the enrollment rather than ensuring college access for financially needy students. >> dr. leath getting into the debt and loans i was surprised surprised to read in the "des moines register" in me that you have found that one in eight.realize to student loans while two in five.realize how much they owe. so it's great to get this data and i suspect this is pervasive on campuses throughout the
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nation. how do we explain such a misunderstanding and misinformation and what do we need to do to reverse this trend. dr. murdaugh, but see, you mentioned that at tallahassee, that of the student borrows more than $13,000, they don't get any new awards until they sit down with financial counseling or something like that. so is this something we need to do? >> we found we definitely need to do it. the fact that 40% of the students didn't know how much they owed is alarming and some of that comes to the fact that they had no financial literacy before they got into school and their parents handled all the finances for them. they did not see those numbers constantly in front of them of what their obligation would be when they finish. a couple of things we have done. one is to give them the number in every tuition bill so they know how in depth layered with their interest will be and how much they will owe when they are
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finished. the partner closely with the government and university president for the students to push this financial literary -- literacy program. it is being very well received and making a huge difference. the students are responsive. i think nationwide the more financial literacy became give our students early in their college career at the better off they are going to be not only in college but really in life. >> iowa state is one of all mi-5 colleges with full-time financial counseling. is that having some effect? >> is having a huge effect because related to that clinic we are teaching a course similar to one we teach an alcohol awareness to incoming freshmen so when they adjust to college life and being away from home there are a number of links that they need to be educated on in terms of personal responsibility whether it's alcohol or whether it's financial responsibility and these are making a huge
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difference. >> it up more questions that my time is up and i yield to senator and see. >> thank you. dr. leath you mentioned you works two jobs for college and i'm curious if you and president snyder find as many kids working today in school? >> no, think there is a tendency right now for a lot of parents give their children as many opportunities as possible. we are blessed in iowa that we still have a large number of our students come from farm families where they have worked and they have great work ethic and that is probably one of the reasons we are placing 98% of our ag students ag students when they graduate because of that work ethic. if we could tie some of our financial aid to programs like work study programs and co-ops i think we would be better off because we would lower student debt and give them work experience and a work ethic. it's a bigger problem in a lot of schools that iowa state but it's a problem everywhere.
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>> dr. murdaugh? >> yes, senator, think you would find in general the experience is different across community colleges, where a significant percentage of our students are in fact working and coming to school part-time. i think you would find in general it's a very distinct difference between community college demographics and university environment. >> do you find that too dr. snyder? >> yes we do and in fact stan jones to testify the thing earlier this week talked about the traditional student who is going to a residential school is not traditionally -- 25% and 70% of our students work and go to school part-time. the accelerated program as i mentioned, which deals with young high school graduates, they actually sign a pledge not to work or that first year and we find that has a is a huge boost and completion rates but it's really a matter of family, access to cost and what they can really afford. >> each of the three presidents
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mentioned the importance of the pell grant program and as you are well aware a number of the changes have been made to the student aid program over the last three years to preserve the maximum pell grant. how would these changes impact your institutions and however they impacted student completion? >> i think for community colleges, what we have seen going forward is that the pell is roughly record onto free and reduced lunch and 50% of the country is going to be pell eligible, that is the case it's not sustainable without rethinking it and we believe that so community colleges in this group want to help and have a seat at the table to think through that. we are nipping around the edges of pell and perhaps that hurts our students because we are a bit more on the edges than other institutions so i think going forward we recognize we have to clearly think about this if we are going to --
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korea and canada. >> yes, sir. we have seen a dramatic increase in the number of students, the percentage of students in fact that are benefiting from pell. i would share the comment that the sustainability of the model needs to be reviewed, but i must tell you it's changing real people's lives and while we at the institutional level can control tuition price in collaboration with their legislator, at the end of the day you are making a real difference in real people's lives through the funding of pell. >> and in four-year institutions? >> we have about 26% of our students on pell grants, and they have been extremely helpful and they will continue to be especially as affordability has been an issue in a down economy. we have quite a bit of pushback and lack of understanding of why students couldn't participate like they used to and we have got quite a bit of pushback in the agrarian state like iowa the
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professional students like are veterinary students are no longer eligible so we understand some of the realities of the money in the and the funding. but some liberalization of terms would certainly be helpful for our students. >> thank you. dr. twigg can you go into more how this redesign works? you gave the results, but a little bit more of what it's all about and how the technology works. >> certainly. what happens in the redesign process is that the course that is taught as a whole is redesigned by a group of faculty members, so lsu offers college algebra. they work with a course as a whole and start to say the -- stand up and talk, develop a syllabus, teach the problems, make up a test etc. etc.. there are some things that technology can do better and currently on the market there are a lot of very sophisticated
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instructional software programs particularly in mathematics and the sciences that in essence present the materials to students, give them examples, give them practice quizzes, show them what they are doing wrong, tell them what they need to remediate so they can work through the software gaining help from the teacher would needed and intervened but it all flows to the task that the individual professors would be doing one by one. the professor becomes more of a monitor of student progress, the helper, intervening when necessary. so so many of the tasks of the professor used to do individually is being done by the software. just think about grading for example. it allows the professor to handle in some cases twice as many students while still not working harder. is an application of using this technology in the future process. does that make sense? >> it does, thank you and i will study that a little bit more and i will have more questions for all of you. a big question that we all have
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is how federal regulation is affecting what you are doing but i suspect senator alexander will cover a little bit of that in his opportunity. senator bingaman. >> let me just thank you all for your testimony. let me just follow up with this issue of the redesign of these courses that dr. twigg has been talking about. we have had at the university of new mexico a grant i gather from your organization and it has allowed us to put in place our redesign of the first year psychology course, which has been very successful in students are doing better than they ever did. everyone is learning more and enjoying it. the obvious question that occurs to me is that, technology i think has changed a lot of things in our society and it seems to me, we are just now beginning to see the potential
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impact of technology on higher education. if you have a group of faculty from wherever, get together and design a course in introductory psychology or any other subject, why isn't that course appropriate to be offered on line everywhere in the country at that point? i mean, why should the university of tennessee do a version of that in the university of mexico do a different version and the university of iowa to a different version? if they want to change ells and whistles on it, fine, but why aren't all of the schools in the country that are offering a course in introductory psychology using that basic redesigned course? dr. twigg? >> it might not surprise you
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that i get that -- asked that question quite frequently. to give you an idea for diversity in general psychology, there were 72 general psychology textbooks on the market today. 72 and that is a pretty good number for a subject most of us would think is quite similar, but there are differences within general psychology with what people want to emphasize and what the level of the students are so there are reasons for this adversity. however, one of the big contributions of instructional software, which is becoming much much more prevalent to commercial textbook publishers creating software as well as individual companies, is that they create materials that are much more able to be used widely. they are not as specific as textbooks. and silly community college can use the same software that the university of new mexico can use, so that is making a major contribution. went to have software playing such a big part, in many ways,
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these courses are being replicated but you always seem to have an individual instructor in the place to keep them on task, and mentor them etc., but all that development work that goes on is a waste of time and many of these cases could -- courses can be medicated. >> you indicated there are 25 courses that account for 42% of the instruction that goes on in universities. it would seem that you could have the best designed course that we could come up with, we as a country, could come up with for each of those 25 and have that available on line to be used by any institution in the country. >> well, there is the second part of it though that is really critical because a lot of people are talking about creating free courses and this is going to solve the problem, but the materials that are created are essential, but what is also
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important is the language the material are used. in other words you can have one set of course material and of the faculty member says to the students we will go up and study it and i hope you do well and pay no attention chances are the students are not going to do well. if they structure the course to be interactive with the students using those materials that is where you see the gains in learning. so it is more than course material. is really the pedagogy that surrounds the teaching and that is something which is quite new for most college faculty. that is why the redesigned -- is spreading across the country. we have 153, not 1053. >> mr. snyder think you indicated you have 100 learning centers? >> we have about 40 locations where you we can pursue a degree and we are teaching at satellite facilities in 60 others. >> okay, so how does the use of on line instruction like we have been discussing here, how does
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that work in the context of your school? >> we are unique in that we are statewide college so we are essentially one college regardless so what you talk about in terms of why cant there be one course that everybody takes, that happens in indiana, we limit face-to-face courses to three books and on line courses to one book and the student can sign up on line and receive instruction from any professor anywhere in the state although we encourage them to get their counseling at home. so we think on line is a perfect fit and there has to be a certain amount of preparatory work. we have a program called smarter measure, which we are going to make widely available that will help the student determined, are you capable of navigating an on line i.t. system but we think on line will be prevalent. we are a big partner with western governors which is a totally on line university and we are trying to learn as much from them although we are
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probably the largest ongoing community college provider in the country and offered across state borders. >> thank you mr. chairman. >> senator alexander. >> thanks is your chairman. i want to thanks senator harkin for this hearing and the constructive way that it has been conducted. thanks to the distinguished -- distinguished group of witnesses for coming. i have asked -- been asked which is more difficult than might answer is you have never been a university president. or you wouldn't ask a question like that, so i share your -- i understand what you are doing. dean heller said it's -- the change is a principle reason for the rising tuition and doctors have to remember to 1981, i believe it was you, 75% in iowa
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of the state paid the students the cost of a student going to iowa state and the students pay the other part. that was true in tennessee in 1981. i was governor them. it was 70-30 and we had a deal with the students, if we increase tuition by 2%, we will increase the state funding by 2%. that is what we did. today it's just the reverse in our state. it is the reverse in your state based on what you said. but i didn't hear any of you say what you think is the principle reason why states have failed to fund higher education as well today as they did 30 years ago? does anyone want to say what that is? >> sure, senator alexander. i have actually written about this a lot because the question comes up, why have state spend
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his investing in higher education when we can all sit here and talk about the benefits of higher education as well as innovation. the primary reason is because of politics and not economics. both legislatures and governors have discovered public higher education institutions are one of the few sectors of state government that have the ability as well as the willingness to raise sufficient revenues on their own with the exception of toll roads perhaps. there are other parts of state government to have the ability to raise their own funding. we have's mark legislators and governors who discovered this and as they cut appropriations or let them grow not as facts as they have in the past universities don't shut down. they maintain quality and they do that primarily by raising tuition as well as traditional sources of revenue. >> any other ideas about that? >> i have a slightly different view having looked at it when i came in. number one indiana kept funding pretty generously the university
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system until 2000, 2008, 2009 until state budgets forced them to rethink that. in the course of that we are now moving to performance funding and that is based on outcomes instead of just enrollment, which it was, and i think that is one of a handful of states starting to move in that direction. it seems to me when you contrast what is going on with other institutions compared to community colleges, the community colleges because of the networks and the local support, kept their tuition increases quite low and such that a community college can deliver the first two years, transferable almost anywhere, the first two years of college between six and $10,000 may be between five and $10,000 so the actual book cost of delivering the first two years could be based on the community college and anything above that is based on institutional costs related
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to the delivery of the first two years. i only have a minute left. let me use it in this way if i may without interrupting. i have my own view of the real reason and i'm pretty sure of it. having watched it over that period of time. it didn't start with president obama and it didn't even start with president george w. bush. is a single word and its medicaid. 30 years ago, state budgets were 8% medicaid. today they are 25% and i know from my own experience as you get down to the end of the budget process you really, after you fund highways and you get down to two pots of money and its higher education or medicaid. and as long as the federal government requires things to continue to fund medicaid na preferential way, other -- in my
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own view is going to be seriously damaged. so this is a longer discussion but it's an important discussion and maybe you could come back to it during this time. despite all the innovative things you can do with three-year degrees or two year or one year degrees or operating in the summer, it seems to me that unless we unleash the states from federal medicaid requirements, that our great public research universities and their conference of universities and our community colleges will continue to be underfunded and tuition will go up in loans will go up and i think that increase from 8% to 25% of the state budget is by far -- thank you mr. chairman. >> i might just add senator alexander, just to throw in here, numerous town meetings i have had in iowa over the last 20 years or so, it has come up time and time again about
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funding for higher education and what i have had and what i've heard people say is you know, we put all that money into iowa state in iowa and educate those kids and they go to california. they go to texas and colorado or florida or someplace like that. we are not seeing the benefit of it. this has popped up at town meetings i have had for a long time and i just wonder how much that seeps through legislative thinking. i don't know. i just know i've heard that. >> i think one reason for the increase in scholarships like the hope scholarship or broad-based merit scholarship which gives every student and a or a thee and $4000 to go to a tennessee institution is the hope of having gone to the university of tennessee they will stay in tennessee and which i think is a valid gold starting with georgia and that makes a difference but that is interesting observation. >> thank you very much. senator merkley.
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>> thank you mr. chair. >> i'm sorry, senator franken was next. i apologize. i got out of line. >> i withdraw, thank you. [laughter] >> i didn't look at my list here. >> i will take his and i will raise it one. dr. leath you have testified about some of the information that iowa state university includes on its financial aid award letters including information about students current indebtedness and the amounts of their payment after school. can you explain why you feel it's so important to include this type of information in award letters? >> there are a couple of reasons. one of the things we trying do is educate her students beyond the actual maturity in the
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classroom, in other words make them better students and it's hard to get this level of personal responsibility of a are not well informed in these areas. we have shown by her data that kids coming into not understand personal financial commitments or even their obligations so to be good citizens and manage their money. the other thing we think and have a significant role in driving down in debian is just through the educational process, we are finding students that go through these programs and see the numbers in front of them tend to borrow less after the program. >> unfortunately, not every school is moving to include this type of important information on their financial, their aid award letters. in fact some school letters to not even distinguish between grants and loans. i have seen letters where they have a stafford loan by some
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codes and they don't even say it's a loan. it looks for role purposes, especially when it's in award letter, usually they don't pay interest on an outboard, you know? a recently introduced a bill to require universities to use a universal financial aid award letter that would include some of the information that you highlight in your testimony. this bill will help students have accurate information of the true cost of college. do you see value in tracking other schools to do what you have done with financial aid award letter so that they can really judge apples-to-apples and oranges to oranges? >> absolutely. i think we have seen results that get our student to take out -- a financial literacy program are still confuse
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comparing obligations of possibilities to iowa state to other schools because not everyone uses the same language are the same terms. i think it would be a great service and unfortunately we might have to legislate it but it would be valuable. >> i think we do have to legislate it. president snyder, aligning education with work horse needs is critical. i think more students would be willing to go to college if they had a clearer sense that a degree would lead to a job. can you talk about the work you have done to align college and work horse needs and what the federal government can do to support alignment between schools and the industry and workforce boards? >> i think that is a critical question. the community colleges as unique part of higher education are
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partners with the work across the country and partners with the employers. virtually every community college program in every college and every community in the country has a program like industrial technology that has an industry advisory board. that is virtually the pattern, which is unique. that means they are actually local leaders that are part of that. we think that is a critical element. we started a program, senator alexander, that clearly mimics the tennessee technology centers which we think are probably one of the best examples particularly for employees that want to think about a job, where you can start with the end of mine and the end may take one year to get an industry recognized certificate. one year industry certificates that are the first step in a two-year degree so i think partnership with work alliance and some role rethinking on we
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as a nation is more responsive and boards being more focused on training and then more visibility in these programs like the tennessee technology center button and began away call it the institute but it's clearly a list of what they're doing. those are the things i think you actually have to demand of the community colleges. it's her best workforce development tool because that is what we do. we tend to be underfunded because of the pockets we come from and because we keep the cost low. but i think there's huge entrepreneurial spirit to keep doing this. >> i think people are, there's a tendency toward this around the country i believe and i tell, i'm trying to get it done in minnesota and they are, but i would like to say to the gentleman in the ranking member
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that reauthorization i think would need very timely in terms of being able to coordinate between the industry, the workforce boards and the colleges and community colleges. so thank you mr. chairman. i have to go back to judiciary. >> thank you senator franken. senator merkley. >> thank you mr. chairman. i see a lot of young folks attending the hearing today. i just thought i would ask, will you raise your hand if you have college debt on our worried about how that affects your future? wow. this is a major stress, and i feel like i was very fortunate in college to have minimal loans coming out. my parents didn't want me to work the first year and school didn't mommy to make the first -- work the first year but
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i worked a lot the following three years. there are so many students who find that they have to drop out of college. i was interviewing somebody from my staff yesterday who was talking about a family member, a brother i believe it was, who had gone for a year and had to drop out and work her year to get the tuition to go back to kennedy college and in this work environment it's hard to make ends meet let alone save the money to return to college. then we end up with this pronged period and a lot of folks don't make it back to fill the opportunity and the vision they have to fulfill their potential. dr. heller you mentioned the federal pell grant amendment to mistress and program and the concept behind it is a message. you will be able to afford college and utilize your high school experience productively because there is a future for you. now you talk about the need to fund this. hasn't been funded at all and do we have any results as a model
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or is this a vision that has yet to be experimented with? >> my understanding is it is not yet been funded and was included in the reauthorization and i don't believe administration has yet included in its request. >> i think it's a is a powerful concept. we know in some cases length of us have talked to kids in lower income areas and adopted classrooms and said we will fund your college so kids from grade one no but that is a possibility i come from a working-class family where nobody had ever gone to college for my parents said we will figure it out. i always had that in the back of the mind that somehow we would make it happen. that is something that is not in the back of the minds of students across america and your ideas a very good one and what you are exploring. so, appreciate that. dr. leath you talked about financial literacy. the state legislature i pushed to make a financial literacy course a required part of high school education.
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what i saw was something much more complicated than 30 years ago. when i got out of graduate school and came here to work with the department of defense i was turned down for a credit card because i didn't have two years work experience. now my children get applications. we have all sorts of high interest, payday loans and title loans and even the school scholarships that certainly a lot of folks don't even know they have and don't understand that they can't be relieved by bankruptcy. you are basically on the hook and better make sure every dollars well spent. do we need to have more financial letter saying as kind of a preparation of our learning in high school to go into college and into life being able to manage their finances more effectively? >> we are supportive in some ways when we started these programs. it almost seemed like they were remedial because you would expect people as smart as our college students are in
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seemingly ensure that they would be at a higher level of knowledge on financial literacy. if they came better prepared we would be delighted. >> it's worth continuing that conversation. i want to turn to the rowing examples of free university courses. i think public radio had a conversation called sarah. last week a number of universities have worked together to create free on line courses and i understand someone who was involved with google has created a clinic called audacity is a free line -- free on line course. even though they are providing these courses, think they are not accepting, there's not a system in which they will accept credits from folks that take these. is that something that should be explored? is their problem in terms of universities bidding willing to
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accept them as a source of education? i see dr. twigg. do you want to address that? >> yes, i think there is a problem. these courses are really more like continuing education courses and that they are not awarding college credits. you can apply for the degree. in many cases what they are is simply videotaped lectures of professors classes being put upon the internet. you have heard of these things called moods which are these mass on line courses and one of the sample professors do this. he had 160,000 students. primarily students in other countries. so it really remains to be seen whether this idea has any real applicability to american college students. >> i am 20 seconds out of time so there is so much more i would like to ask and this is such an important issue to our future. one of the things that deeply disturbs me is that we are
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becoming the first generation of parents his children are getting less education than we got. i saw the statistics in the materials for the first time in history my state age 55 to 64 or better educated than their 25 to 34-year-old counterparts. that is 33% versus 27% of having a bachelors degree. this is a knowledge economy world. this is a terrible statistic. we should all need deeply concerned about and the cost we are discussing today are huge part of the problems i really appreciate you all participating in this as we ponder how to take on this important problem. >> thank you senator merkley. >> thank you mr. chairman and thank you so much for holding this hearing. even though dr. leath is representing iowa state i'm happy to see him here today. prior to becoming president of iowa state.your leath served as vice president for the unc system and our system comprises
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16 universities across the state i'm also happy to read in her testimony that iowa state and antistate are neck-and-neck among the peer institutions for having the lowest tuition for undergraduate students. in north carolina we have a long history of providing academic excellence at affordable prices. in fact despite state budget constraints the university of north carolina system, our schools continue to be of great value in terms of providing a quality education for a reasonable price compared to many other colleges and universities across the country. and in 2006, the former president of our unc system, erskine bowles established a presence advisory committee on efficiency and effectiveness. it was called tait and it was task not only with performing a comprehensive review of the unc system schools, all 15 of them in making recommendations for
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how they can operate more efficiently but also to establish principles promoting continuous identification and implementation of efficiency practices moving forward. additionally, the unc at chapel hill launched a study that was title, carolina counts and that was the campuswide initiative just to make operations more efficient. and duke carolina counts, chapel hill has identified and implemented $50 million in permanent administrative savings as a way to help institutions wisely implement these budget reductions. so i think there are some positive things that can be done but we also are very concerned about the budget issues affecting higher education today. i'm very concerned about it. and dr. leath i know senator merkley asked a question about financial literacy and i want to follow up on that. i'm happy to hear about the full-service financial
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counseling clinic at iowa state for which what i understand offers individual counseling workshops and courses on personal finance such as budgeting and the use of credit cards and i'm a strong proponent of financial literacy requirements in education and i think we need to be doing so much more now to ensure that young people understand what it means to take out a student loan, how to use a credit card. we cannot get by in our country today without an understanding of death and not all of that is bad. as long as it's used for investment purposes and i strongly think education is a huge investment. but i understand that this is a voluntary program and the participants in the final -- anant shall clinic has dramatic increase but they are still not getting every student. when i was in the state legislature in north carolina i mandated that a financial literacy curriculum be taught in the high schools and it's still not enough and still is a very
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very small part of a larger class, but what have you been doing and what do you plan to do to attract more students? i'm inclined to think that each and every student should take a course like this. would you consider making this a mandatory course for all incoming students? >> where we are at right now is where pushing it. we teach alcohol awareness training and also cover sexual responsibility and we are up to 83% on a voluntaryion tdent bodr finding students are more receptive, retaining information more when they take it because their peers think it's important. if we can drive up the financial literacy because other students and student government are pushing this, it's really great and it's worthwhile and they should take it. we think it would be more meaningful. if we can get those numbers up sin we would consider making it
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mandatory. >> two of the other witnesses have comments on that wax. >> senator i would simply say our experiences that you have to make it mandatory. when you make things optional for students, you simply do not get the kind of involvement that you need to have, unfortunately. we would certainly support making it mandatory. >> so we are a member of this achieving the dream initiative in many states and have been involved for low income students of color, so we initiate a mandatory environment for all incoming students and then we made it a mandate that if you're in a remedial course, you must take a student success course. either one or three credit hours which don't lead to a degree but do cover financial literacy is part of that time management so that is mandatory if you're in remediation. we have seen a kick up and persistence because we have done that.
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tico students get lost between that first and second year. so it is mandatory. >> how long is that class? >> one classes three credit hours and involves how to get yourself into all aspects of college life so these are not residential students. it's primarily going to be managing your courses in helping you through your major, making sure you understand what the advisory system is and a course in financial literacy. student aid and community colleges goes beyond, in other words, community college tuition is less than the pell, so the students have to figure out how to use that pell money so they don't have to go far. you shouldn't really have to borrow and at community colleges here in florida, if you have a full pell grant at but students do and that is what we are trying to avoid or goosby that is why think our community colleges to such an excellent
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job and i too think it should be mandatory. you could not get by in our country today without understanding credit and i don't think many schools do a good job at this in middle or high school which i think we need to be working on too but i am very concerned about it. the work that the unc system and chapel hill are doing are one of the ways to reduce costs that i talked about earlier and got dirt twigg you shared your work around the effectiveness of course redesign to save money. what are some of the other practices that schools around the country are engaging in or should consider in order to save funds? >> well i think schools are trying to do a number of different things. but most of the efforts have been concentrated on the administrative level i would say.
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pure cramond programs, finding coalitions of other institutions to buy other kinds of things and that is important but i think that what is not really in touch is the academic program which is the heart and soul of most institutions. we used to say that faculty cost up to 80% of the institution and that is no longer the case. there has been a lot of growth in administrative costs but nevertheless the fact remains much as they were 200 years ago makes them relatively inefficient and ineffective, so i think the thing that really needs to be done at institutions is to start on that aspect of the college or university and that is to redesign the way academic or grams are both constructed and delivered. that is where you will start to see much greater savings. >> give me a picture of what this might look like.
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>> well, one of the things we talk about on the top 25 emerald courses so the community college, that is 51 or 52% of the overall enrollment. tallahassee community college was a participant in our early redesign program and they redesigned their freshman english course. for students outcomes were much superior to the pre-redesign course and this was 10 years ago, $330,000. >> what is a redesign course? >> rather than each individual structure, tallahassee had about 20 subjects in freshman english, rather than every instructor doing his or her own thing individually, the analogy about doubling a car in a garage is supposed in the factory, said the faculty works as a team to develop materials jointly so all that preparation time is cut down. they developed examinations jointly. that is cut down and they have some on line exercises so they're not doing everything,
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teachers doing every single thing. analyzing what is going on in thinking where the technology can be applied to offload some of the human effort and we have to keep the human part of the teaching. so there are different design decisions made according to the discipline. >> thank you was sure chairman. >> thank you senator hagan. a couple of final observations. this committee has conducted an extensive investigation over the last couple of years in the industry. i have had professional staff involved in this and we will be putting out our findings of a two-year investigation with hundreds of thousands of documents reviewed and we will be putting this out hopefully the week after next, we will finally have a report.
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.. and that is online courses. now, i think you've skewed it greatly in many cases. they haven't provided the student support services things like that to point out. but more and more keeps coming out. i've heard from just everyone on
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this panel about getting involved in or on any dvds. they are learning more that way as adolescence. they are learning how -- they are more and more adopting the learning through online. so what can we do on the federal level to help promote, whether at iowa state or community colleges, which i think really had to be involved in this because you know what needs to be done. i mean, when you've got 90% of your students gain jobs, that's fantastic. i can tell you it's not the way of the for-profit industry. so somehow there's greater expertise here. so why aren't more schools getting involved in all my neck dvds and extending out more? private colleges, public
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universities, community colleges dr. twigg, why? >> there are more. the number of students engaged my courses grows by millions every year. there is an organization of the consortium that counts the number of online students. these numbers are growing rapidly. there were not as many institutions that are devoted purely to online courses. in general, this additional institutions that do some online. the community colleges have been in the lead in many ways an online courses. for example, virginia community college system was one of the earliest leaders in the online courses and they have hundreds of thousands of student taking online courses. so i think it's something that the average citizen thinks only a couple of people are doing it,
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but in fact almost every institution in the country offer some kind of online activity. >> someone mentioned the western governors association. they're doing pretty fantastic stuff. we might be of great program and we worked with augmentin hall and they had to process that focuses on the adult learner. the adult learner is really the one that has been a benefit of online and i was a void that the for-profits filled. retired to the for-profit. there's a lot of things in the way they run their back office their back office of the much more and the way they deliver different varieties of media. i think we have to be thoughtful about new regulations because we don't want to sleep ourselves into everybody being concerned about outreach or advertising because the states to adopt similar rules and pretty soon
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you have no budget to explain to the high school students about how to go to college and also there is the the accreditors to get concerned about the media presented in online. in other words, it's okay to bring the textbook, but they get worried about other media is when really online is all about is really open network of media, so you think is critical. with the largest online provider in terms of actual head count other than perhaps apollo. we could have operated in the last two years with a 40% increase enrollment. >> anyone else? >> mr. chairman, i would say the proliferation of online has really outstripped our ability to understand the effectiveness of it. there's so many organizations, public and private who have raced into the online world and were now beginning to be a lot to sort out which of those are actually delivering quality education and which are not.
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as that emerges, people can make other decisions. we have a very robust online program. i would like to add that we talk about it as an either or. we found great effectiveness of blended learning programs for some of what we do, we do online. winkle students in hands-on application of hands on maternity outcome which is an incredibly important part. as you know, there was a federal requirement that was put in sam nunn, georgia, 1992 that required on the for-profit schools that 50% of their students had to be campus-based. 50%. that was removed if i'm not mistaken and she doesn't die. so now 100% of the students of
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the report will show in a couple weeks since that time has just skyrocketed in terms of how many online we know to drop out rates are now and then on completion rates are at these schools then it's abysmal. so before we had a requirement. 50%. we don't have a requirement anymore. >> senator, we found lidded nerdiness the right approach. your alma mater jumped 23% distance and online credit/zero peer were basically a science and technology university. there's still many programs better served in hands-on laboratories and other spaces in addition we want to emphasize there's also the added component that there's more to what you get an intellectual material, whether it's teambuilding, living in residence halls are many other incidents that come with living on campus. so we've got to get the blood
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brain. >> if they may add, senator and your comments about the for-profit center, the department of education last year promulgated gainful employment and hasn't been challenged in the courts and on the other side of the capital there's a movement to prohibit the department from enforcing those rules. i would strongly encourage to support the department because that's an important quality assurance may convince them that can be used with its online programs, blended programs for residential face-to-face programs to ensure any institution is a high-quality program if it's vocationally oriented program. >> i use tallahassee as an example in terms of employment and what can happen. i just had one other thing i wanted to cover. for all of you come to a report from 20 elevenths on a bachelors degree graduate took 14% more credits than necessary for
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graduation. associate degree graduates took 32% more than necessary and certificate students took 112% more than necessary. i'm not certain what all this means, but it does add extra financial burden to students entering financial aid resources. so what is this all about? where students taking are choosing to take additional credits? is this something we should be concerned about? it's just curious how we looked at this and saw this data. >> if i might come as circum- one of the things are referred to as academic proficiency in terms of planning. our ptolemy uses an individualized learning plan begins with the conversation among us between student and advisor, where they talk of the student knows what their long-term career plan is, then they build the academic ladder
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to get them to their career pole. obviously some don't know. we can start them on a generic path, but it avoids exactly what you're talking about. we focused the student on the courses they need to take and we give them advice about our experience with regard to the sequencing of those courses that will serve them all and want them to continue to succeed. >> also listen it true that a lot of times kids go to college thinking they're going to pursue one course of study and find out they're not quite suited for the switchover in need to take extra credit. i know that happens to, mr. snyder. >> career path is important, but we've given it a term called credit creep and that is you think you would only need four semesters of 15 credits or 60 to get your two year degree and double that to feature a four year degree. we work with the general assembly and actually made that a statute that said other than
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national accrediting requirements that program should be limited to 60 and 120 and were now working with two years and four years. while pathways are one problem, the issue is curriculum committees will say an extra course here an extra course there are good and pretty soon you have 12 extra credit, which didn't exist five years ago or 10 years ago. i think we'll see the results on states that enact it. if it's going to be important for society come together to say what can we do to combat this in a two-year window or four year window. credit creep is what we're working against. >> any other observations on that at all? here's another touchy subject that comes up a lot. how much of student aid is for lifestyle rather than for beauty and the money pay tuition for
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basic word on board? how much of that is borrowed for having a certain higher lifestyle? i hear a lot about this. >> i guess i would say the short answer is too much because really none of it should be used that way. we have had issues where students have used it for car payment and spring break to keep up with their friends, for weddings, other things. we've made great strides with financial literacy that there is a day of reckoning comes to an use it for these type of things and you shouldn't be borrowing. you should be limiting means omnis. i don't know that's as bad as some spectacular stories that we hear, but it's real come if we need to drive it down. >> yes, dr. sunday. >> one of the programs have been working with is a nationwide program in developmental math.
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as you know this is a big problem because the sheer number of students that have to take some kind of remedial course in developmental course. the institutions are working with and have found that they are receiving ads in every class they've enrolled four. strictly for financial aid purposes. so my impression is another word they never go to class, to any class. >> i've heard this. how prevalent is this? >> because we focus on the first year college in developmental area i've heard from numerous institutions. institutions just don't think to track it, but they were trying to understand why you're not having success in the redesign and i think that is something that shouldn't be looked at quite seriously to find out how extensive the practices. if you think 85% of students in the class were in these circumstances, particularly during this economy and in this
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case rural areas of the country, where they have no intention of being students. so i think it's worth looking into. >> do something i'm not? is this just bits and pieces or is this some and have any more and more? i don't know. >> we don't have good data on what the split is. clearly there's lifestyle students. community colleges predominate we were not all of our students are poor, but if you're poor not a scholar you're the community college. i think that's clear. if you look at default rates come even in yesterday's "wall street journal," nine out of 10 people try to pay back their loan, which is probably a good sign. colleges can do something. tracking ten-day attendance in short-term attendance of people not showing up to withdraw them from school is one of the techniques we're using because we worry about defaults.
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and lowering the cost of attendance that we calculate, which actually puts a cap on how much they can borrow. we actually did that for i.d. tag, that we lower the cost of attendance to reduce the borrowing capacity because we said to ourselves that pella pays for everything and we don't want them to use that appear although poor students to do for transportation and everything else digs a hole they can't get out of. but the default rate of 10% across the board says a lot of people are trying to get that money back. >> senator, there are certainly stories about students using federally to subsidize lifestyle other than cost of going to college, but the reality is that we millions of pell grant recipients and receiving student loans cost of trying to implement change of policy based on stories. when you talk to pell grant recipients, what you find the fact is most of them are highly dependent upon that assist in
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and they are not using it for spring break or car and less of the car they need to get their classes. i would be cautious about not overreacting to stories out there in the media. >> are there any other things anybody want to put on the record or say that i have been asked if anyone has a nasty question or delved into two had anything to the testimony? again, this has been a great panel and great information. we thank you for leadership in this area. again, i guess the underlying question i always have, dr. twigg in terms of the course redesigns and everything else is just what's our role? what is the federal government's role in promoting this? take for example what dr. leath is doing it i was safe in terms of financial counseling thing?
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i think every school at the headset, every college. i don't know if we should be doing now or hopefully schools have peaked. the community colleges down they are. all of you. i just don't know what we -- that's what i want to find out. what's our proper role? what should we be doing? i'm not asking you to solve that right now. >> i can't solve the entire problem, but i can make a suggestion. the federal government offers lots of competitive grant programs through the department of education, through msf, through the department of labor. he had very few of these programs focus on the productivity problem and higher education. the very thing we are all saying is one of the major problems we face as a country. they focus strictly on improvement of curriculum.
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and so were some of these agencies to include the cost question as well as the curricular question as well as the things we've been doing, lots and lots of creative ideas would come forward. as long as programs i should prefer innovation, strictly for changes, they don't tend to stabilize in any way. so that's when you are to encourage the do. it's created to come up with new kinds of ideas and i think there's many, many millions of dollars spent in current programs that could be redirected and formulated more specific to address the cost issue as well. >> i invite any of you if you have thoughts on this later on to get it to this committee and let us know your suggestions and thoughts on how we can affect some of these changes a little bit more. unless anyone has anything else,
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i'm just going to point out. dr. speer gave me this. think about this, k-12 education is mandatory. state correction facilities are mandatory. never thought about this. the state says you've got to go to jail come you got to go. medicaid for senator alexander product is not. it's matching money. no state custody medicaid. they don't have to. but if they want the matching money, they have to do certain things. it's only in higher ed that has paying customers. so in state legislatures look at that, someone said that's the only thing you can go to that's got a big pot of money or you can get someone else to pay for it. and that's really a problem we've got to address on this. i just thought that was a curious way of looking at it. again, i think everyone.
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the topic is of particular importance to this committee and the other committee i chair, which is the appropriations committee. i'm grateful for this and i invite you again to continue to give us the benefit of your insight on the assembly to record open for 10 days until august the second. i think all of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle for their hard work on this and the collaborative approach on this issue. for the hearing of the health committee is now adjourned. [inaudible conversations]
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>> over the next several hours, on who should oversee increased domestic cronies. the subcommittee heard it from the university of texas oppressor who hijacked a civilian drone to highlight vulnerabilities. this is two hours. [inaudible conversations] >> the committee will come to order. first, as a matter of business, mr. kinney is running mate and i would ask that mr. cuellar said as ranking member for this hearing. see no objection, mr. duncan, yet no objection to that?
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i now recognize myself for an opening statement. unmanned aerial systems commonly known as drone has been a game changer for men and women serving in iraq and afghanistan. the systems have provided troops with eyes in the skies have taken the flight to the enemy. to eliminate the most dangerous al qaeda terrorist, drums have increased capabilities to secure our borders and first responders. u.s. customs and border protection began first looking at drums back in 2004, now cvp owns 10 ues aircraft. the systems have been used to surveilled drug smuggler tunnels, videos, burbridge, risk of flooding and assist with the deployment of national guard resources responding to local flooding. cdp has flown missions in support of the border patrol, texas rangers, u.s. service, fbi
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and others. the systems have become a force multiplier for military operations and for border security. however, we run the edge of the new horizon. using unmanned aerial systems within the homeland currently are 200 active certificates of operation issue i the federal aviation administration to over 100 different entities such as law enforcement department and academic institutions to fly drugs domestically. this map on the monitor shows the locations of coa recipients as at april 2012. the number of recipients since that time has in fact increased. the faa plans to select 65 cities around the country for the use of nongovernment euros this year and plans to allow the deployment of nongovernment drugs nationwide i.t. here 2015.
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while the faa is responsible for ensuring the systems fly safely in u.s. airspace with only two and a half short years until drums began to dominate the skies in the u.s. homeland, no federal agency is taking the lead to do with the full implications of using unmanned aerial systems and developing the relevant policies and guidelines for their use. this is despite the fact that four years ago the government accountability office recommended to the secretary of homeland security that she directed tsa administrator to examine security implications of future nonmilitary uav has operations in the national airspace system and take any actions deemed appropriate. tos recommendation was well-founded cousin 2004 tsa issued an advisory that describe possible terrorist in using uis as weapons. the advisory noted the potential
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for uis to carry explosives to disperse chemicals or biological weapons for the armed forces of colombia or and has below were interested in acquiring d's uas's. while the advisory knowledge is no credible evidence to suggest the organization planned to use the systems in the united states, it did state the united states government was concerned that these aerial vehicles could be modified and used to attack key assets and critical infrastructures within the united states. these concerns were validated just last week or last year when massachusetts man agreed to plead guilty to attempting to damage and destroy federal buildings. the individual is arrested and put number of 2011 after an undercover fbi investigation revealed a plot to use multiple
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remote-controlled aircraft laden with explosives to collapse the dome of the united states capitol and attack the pentagon using that uav system. as if this plot was a frightening enough, cutting-edge research out of the university of texas at austin has revealed to have more. specifically researchers from the school of engineering led by todd humphries was our first witness today through the civilian unmanned systems can be hacked into and hijacked with the relatively small investment of money and time. these findings are alarming and have revealed a keeping hole in the security of using i'm an aerial systems domestically. now is the time to ensure these vulnerabilities are mitigated to protect her aviation system at the use of unmanned aerial systems continues to grow. the department of homeland security mission is to protect
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the homeland. unfortunately dhs seems either disinterested or am prepared to step up to the plate to address the proliferation of unmanned aerial systems in u.s. airspace. the potential threats they pose to our national security and the concerns of our citizens have of how drones fly over cities will be used, including protecting civil liberties of individuals under the constitution. for example, in discussion with my staff prior to this hearing, department officials repeatedly stated that the department does not see this function with the domestic use of drones as part of their mission and has no moral of the domestic unmanned aerial systems. i strongly disagree. i can imagine how they would find they have no role when there's a terror plot afforded by the fbi, attempting to hit the united states capitol and the pentagon.
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what more homeland security interests could there possibly be. dhs is lack of attention about this issue is truly incomprehensible. it should not take a 9/11 style attack by terrorist organizations such as hezbollah or a lone wolf inspired event to cause dhs to develop guidance addressing the security and creations of domestic drones. they should not take a hearing to force dhs to develop policy when it comes to security of our homeland. what it should take his responsible leadership willing to recognize a potential threat and take the initiative. dhs? initiative and i am concerned that dhs is reverting back to pre-9/11 mindset, which the 9/11 commission described as a lack of imagination in identifying threats and protecting the homeland. we are disappointed that dhs declined to testify here today. this is simply another example
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of how dhs leadership is failing to get ahead of the curve on an issue which directly impact security of the united states. i hope her witnesses testimony will be a call to action for the department. during today's testimony, we look forward to learning more about security issues related to the domestic use of drones and what do you just needs to do to prepare for their widespread use. with that, the chair now recognizes the ranking member i guess pro tem, mr. cuellar. >> thank you, mr. chairman. at thank you for the opportunity to be here with you as the ranking member for the border maritime where we deal with border security and dealing with some of the uav is the u.n. i have worked on together. it certainly gives us an opportunity. also cochair of the unmanned system caucus for informational
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purposes, members, we do have tomorrow a caucus meeting and we are going to have members representatives from the fbi, dhs, cbp tomorrow night at the rayburn room 2261. this will be an opportunity for members and their staff to learn about current and future domestic use of unmanned aerial vehicles. buck mckeon and myself have spent time with other members of the caucus looking at issues. privacy issues brought up that i've seen a lot of the privacy issues severity been decided by the supreme court. we're looking at use in a type of platform. so whether it's a dirt poor in this case a lot of those privacy issues have been addressed by the supreme court. there's one to page a has
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anybody wants to learn about privacy issues on drones or uavs, please contact my office or box office. but the other thing, you bring up a lot of good points we need to cover. good questions to look forward from a u2 graduates also. i do have two degrees and dr. come as a pleasure meeting you. i do have a few questions for you on that, but i think this type of dialogue will be good to talk about. one last thing as you mentioned, we did pass the reauthorization that tax about the integration of more dominion uavs in different steps we have broadband. if you haven't talked to the has to do discuss because they are steps they will be going into the future used on this. i know the ranking member,
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mr. keating is on its way. he does have a statement. i'm not going to read a statement. obeah appeared if you are given the opportunity to also make that statement when he shows up. but at this time, thank you for allowing me to be with you all. >> i think the ranking member. before continuing i asked to ranking tests can't know for unmanned vehicle systems international and captain lee mack, president of the airline pilots association describing the domestic use of ues. both of them are very much in favor of this hearing. hearing no objections, so order. the chair now will go to the panel and introduce dr. todd humphreys. he and from austin i take reticular pride that you are also today.
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growing up in a family of longhorn, you take even more pride in not as well. so i have a little bit of orange blood myself. dr. todd humphreys at the school of engineering at the university of texas austin specializes in the application of optimal estimation techniques to problems and satellite navigation, orbital and attitude dynamics of no processing. for anybody here who understand that other than dr. humphreys, congratulations to you. he directs the radio navigation laboratory at ut austin camara's current research focuses on defending against intentional gps spoofing and jamming. most recently, that are humphries uncovered the gps signal to navigate unmanned aerial systems can be hijacked and controlled. he conducted experiments that way since missile range but the department of homeland security
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and dr. humphreys and also i believe the memorial stadium and often. i believe we will see a video that describes that. he obtained his doctorate from cornell university. the chair now recognizes that are humphreys for his opening statement. >> chairman mccaul, members of the subcommittee, you may have heard these reports made by chairman mccaul that about this time last month masterman tonight from the university of texas hijacked a civilian unmanned aerial vehicle, a small helicopter and brought it down from a remote location. that much is true and i've come today prepared to talk about what we did with the implications are for the national airspace and what can be done to address the problems that our experiment brought. so how did we hijack the small helicopter? we exploited a weakness in the global positioning system. you see, gps signals come in two
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flavors. military signals are encrypted to prevent counterfeiting and unauthorized use. and then there are the second class, civilian signals. these are not encrypted. they are freely accessible him not explains they are usefulness, but it also opens up all durability. it makes them easy to counterfeit. or in other words, to his truth. just like monopoly money, they have the detailed structure, but they don't have any built-in protection against counterfeiting or spoofing. so what does this have to do with a uavs? the connection is obvious. i must tell civilian uavs depend heavily on civil gps for their navigation. that means if you can convincingly fake a gps signal, you can fool a uav into tracking your signal instead of the authentic one and at that point you can control the uav and make
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it move left or right, front or back, up or down. in other words, you hijack the uav and you can do this from miles away. my friends at the university of texas have prepared a video that i would like to show you, which illustrates what we did and helps me to explain the technique involved. you see, against the background, an animated one like the one we used fine against the desert floor, this white person entering your picture is the good guy. he is a remote operator up leading to the uav a waste point. the white time as the destination supposed to move to. the gps satellite will relocate itself and as you see your recognizes where the destination it then makes its tracks lining up nicely with this goal.
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the bad guy moving in from the left is this proof operator and is going to transmit a fake gps signal to the uav. at this point we will pause so i can talk about what you see on the screen. the peak on the screen exists in every gps receiver and corresponds to the authentic signal and you can go ahead and roll it now. if you can create gps signals to cause another to appear and what winds up with the authentic ones and that hijacking inside the gps receiver. as it draws off company goes uav flies at the back. the coast is where now it thinks it is. it is this perceived location. as in the in the stories this way point, the ghost uav alliance up instead of the actual uav. we did the same thing at texas
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memorial stadium by making our uav thinking it was rising upward at a fast clip and you'll see here and response it falls downward. we can go ahead and pull it. at first it's the authentic signal to ground controller in control of the uav, but at this point when they go bad it is not a spoof or, the hijacker who controls the uav and it drops precipitously towards the ground. it is all in control of the remote hijacker. then, we were invited by department of homeland security are authorized by the department of homeland security and perhaps facilitated the tests we can conduct over the air, were recaptured the uav in midair. we did it for about half a mile away. i hookup rebroadcast or signal and you'll see in this case is in the former case the uav
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started in the hovering position but then came straight down as if i were an elevator moving down a shaft entirely under control of the remote hack. so what are the implications for national airspace? back in february congress handed a mandate, the federal aviation at to develop a comprehensive plan for safely accelerating uavs in the national airspace and i believe the results of our demonstration should factor heavily into that plan. the district is that the faa is this culture and expertise is geared more towards safety and security and our tests implicated the security of the airspace. i think it is fair to say that dhs may have also a role to play in drawing up these new rules and regulations and i'm happy to entertain questions from the committee.
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>> thank you, dr. humphreys. let me state for the record they canceled the utes football is piercing that they move the football practice, which was the biggest miracle of all in my students eyes. >> me follow up on your last comic as that's been most -- first of all, this is astounding you could hijack a uav and bring it down. i think it is an eye-opener. let me also state that military uavs are encrypted. this could not be done. the ones used on the border, but anyone domestically had this vulnerability we are concerned about. i'll ask you about this later. you mention you typed the faa and their main concern is security of the airwaves -- i'm sorry can the safety of the airwaves. they'll just need and make sure there's no other airplanes are
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uavs that would interfere with the flight pattern. but their focus is not security. but there's no federal agency that is providing oversight in terms of the security aspect today. is that correct? >> as far as i know. i feel dhs is a role to play in that and the faa could possibly play a role there, too. as they say its culture and expertise is not designed for that. >> the government accountability office agreed with you and in a report they said this is the role when they directed the secretary of homeland security to the tsa to basically provide for that security, says security risk domestically and develop a national policy. so i think you have some company there in terms of agreement. i find this to be no one is minding the store and know when
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it's stepping up to the play. many of the gao and dhs to do it, i tend to agree with them kind that dhs is stepping up to the plate and yet they failed to bring witnesses to testify here today on this very commit very important issue when you have a terror plot forward it in the united states s. than a year ago using one of these uavs. let me ask you this. you've identified a whirl vulnerability with these domestic uavs. tell me what would be sort of your nightmare scenario and demonstrating what you were able to do with uavs of a terrorist or some other malicious person wanted to exploit the system. >> okay i should point out currently a not terribly worried. the uav we've brought down was only 13 pounds, not very large. they could do damage in the
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helicopter blades swing swiftly. i'm not terribly worried at present. my nightmare scenario is looking for were three or four years where we have adopted uavs for national air space and now the problem of scaling obsolete more heavy uavs in this particular vulnerability is addressed. we don't fix and it becomes even more indigenous to the navigation system. >> and the next two years all have thousands finer and domestically. does that give you concern given the fact there's no federal agency given aspects click >> they did make a prediction that by 2020 there could be 30,000 in our airspace. i would like someone to take ownership of the security component of uavs coming to the national airs his third
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>> you have done the country a great service by identifying a vulnerability. we talk about cybersecurity connect to the internet are vulnerable, which if you're connected to a gps device are vulnerable. can you explain how that works in a limited amount of time i have left and how we can expect quick >> yeah, sure. you're right. this is just one expression of the larger problem of unauthenticated civilian gps signals. they've been so popular, so useful that over the last two decades we've absorb the technology he deeply into critical national infrastructure so even manned aircraft and some older ability toward spoofing financial exchanges and the energy distribution system are increasingly reliant on gps for timing. so in fact, this is a larger problem than the uav and it all
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gets traced back to the unauthenticated civilian gps signals. >> i see my time is ready to expire. the miss a thank you for coming to washington to testify here. thank you for what i believe thank you for what i believe it's a great service to the country. as for identifying the vulnerability not only take knowledge he wise, but also from a bureaucratic standpoint. i intend for the committee to fix this problem. what that come in to cherner recognizes the ranking member, mr. cuellar. >> doctor, thank you very much and i appreciate the work you've done. just to repeat again, the specific spoofing efforts were be unsuccessful again. the encrypted military gps systems come is that correct click >> is important to remember. >> were talking about civilian uavs. >> i would note also my understanding is for the
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civilian commanders different purposes. law enforcement act purposes, university research purposes and all that. so for civilian purposes or commercial purposes, most are going to be small, 11-pound mini helicopters and i just saw one in laredo used for specific instances and it's usually line up side come is that correct click >> those are the ones currently operated. >> most of the time it would be there and it's usually leavened pounds or whatever the case might be. >> that helps put things in it. >> the other thing is since spoofing focuses on gps signals, it goes beyond unmanned aircraft, which means that anything from cell phone to aircraft will depend.
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you can have an impact on anything dealing with gps that depends on gps for navigation. it not only unmanned. it could be other technologies. >> as long as they depend on signal. >> right, exactly. >> i think you stated the closest thing we have is a foolproof way would be for the gps -- i think it's part of the air force to alter -- from coming down. can you explain how this would be done without an impact in the device is then explained that? >> i said that's the closest thing to foolproof. the truth is they would take a long time for that to be planned, ruled out and implemented. i am not holding my rep for a change in the signal being broadcast by the gps satellite.
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who would like to have it happen because would be a solution that would solve the problem for growing worldwide that uses the gps signals. at least it was sold to some degree and how this would not affect people currently use gps, we can make it backwards compatible so if you pay attention, it's like a watermark and a $20 bill. if you look to $20 bill you can see it, but if you don't pay attention you're not other vice presidents. the same thing happens up adding authentication signatures to civilian gps. bottom line is things will affect gps signals, which means anything that depends on gps signals for navigation, right? >> you can think of the uav but one expression of the larger problem. >> right, exactly. most of the civilian purposes will be small and different types of uavs and most of
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them -- a lot of them are going to be mini helicopters within a specific site for that specific purpose, law enforcement, scientific, news, whatever the case may be. >> that's right. initially anticipated will be specific when they get authorization. i don't know how it's going to 10 or 20 years when we uav highways in the sky like you may see in in the movies. but initially it's very specific purpose for his comments about small uavs, one of my recommendations in the written testimony is those exceeding 18 pounds and may be required to have a spoof resistant navigation system. they recognize we would want to encumber the smaller uavs that are less of a danger in more sensitive with that same kind of requirement. i recognize there's a balance to be struck and we can look at the 16-pound versus a 10-pound.
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at about 18 pounds, they become quite badly if something goes awry. >> way. in the bottom line is i really appreciate it because like anytime ago into a new technology and talk about uavs, basically technologies of different platform. cameras are centers, but it's a different platform whether his helicopter or plane or uav, i really appreciate what you're doing them will be looking at recommendations. it's a lot of good work you and your students did. it's a great job and certainly will take that into consideration. i thank you for your good work. >> i think the ranking member. i didn't have a chance to ask your butcher recommendations for safety and security. i has to submit that for the record. that would be excellent. i know what the gentleman from south carolina, mr. duncan.
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>> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to thank dr. humphreys were being heard. this is educational to me. and thinking through the 2011 with the iranians claiming to hijack a military uav, the question i have for you as an encrypted signal, but do you think that the iranians for labor to use a technology is spoofing to help bring down that uav? the next important to bring whatever they say with a couple of doses of salt. but in this case, i am somewhat concerned that their claims could have some merit. they may have initiated an electronic barrage against the cia uav played their airspace. it could've initiated a sequence of events that led to his capture. the plain fact is that showed up intact and that means we've got a lot of explaining to do.
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>> rate. that means it didn't crash. so that type of electronic rashi mentioned that may have been used, is that possibility within civilian airspace if someone wanted to capture law-enforcement uav, could they put up an electronic garage to bring down a law-enforcement uav? the next similar may be used. the command-and-control signal goes back to the remote pilot and of course gps signal helps navigate. mostly uavs do well if you cut one of those two umbilical cords, but they don't devote to cut out for them. in her case at the spoofing we didn't cut the cord. we supplanted with basic dishes one. so i'm broadly concerned about jamming electronic russia tags into the spoofing these more sinister under the wire attacks. >> you not only change the gps said l-2 for the uav in regard
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to elevation our direction, but you were able to tap into the command-and-control aspect? >> , we did not at that. that could be done as a jamming attack. we cut the cord and prevent the remote operator from controlling the uav as he or she wishes. >> so come you were able to change the gps signal before the plane into thinking the elevation was different to bring it down. speak the remote operator with a contact he wishes for nothing appeared wrong to his sensor in the configuration we hunt. >> you could've flown that during the command-and-control ability to another runway and captured it? >> ultimately yes. it's not terribly easy to control that once you've got. you can jump on its back, or can you read it? question we asked is what could be done not to you captured other than moving it down like
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we did for doing broad strokes. >> if it's used for surveillance purposes and has a real-time feed, could that be be hacked into? or replacement fee is said to for the operator? and thinking mission impossible year with a change the video feed in the operator seen something completely different. is that a possibility? >> or put a polaroid picture? >> it turns out these are areas of research in our laboratory and elsewhere. the truth is those kinds of data feeds can take advantage of the existing encryption utilities that are very difficult to crack. and so if precautions have been in place if those feeds are encrypted it's not cbc. the attacks we were successful in going after the unencrypted, unauthenticated gps that no one has bothered to protect that
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signal and so that was the weakest link. >> you think most in law enforcement or governmental agencies over the u.s. are using encrypted signals or are capability or just civilian gps? >> very few civil government agencies in the united states are using encrypted military signal. all of us depend on the civilian signals. i will tell you i had two of the lieutenant in the austin police department in my office on tuesday and they were asking me for guidance on what i would do with their newly purchased uav. what i use that? would i recommend they use it during game day as they want to monitor for suspicious that they believe around the teeth of a stadium? would i recommend they use it for a s.w.a.t activities of the hostage situations? to give them my recommendations if you have risk on the ground already, i would get those eyes in the sky. but if there isn't an ongoing briski at dignity on the ground,
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i'd probably keep it down. >> you think criminal elements could utilize this for law-enforcement surveillance? >> i think they could use a type elegy -- the spoofing technology? >> gps technology students have come up with. >> i want to make a point this was nec. it has taken us years to perfect see us. the trouble is civilian malefactors or others can get a hold of what are called gps signal simulators and they can do almost everything we did and these are readily available, even purchasable. so i am worried that it could be a weapon in the arsenal of organized crime or state actors of organized terrorists. >> thank you. my time is. >> the chair now recognizes the actual ranking member of the subcommittee, mr. keating. thank you, mr. chairman. the thought of having to texas
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representatives here prompted me to get here with great alacrity. i want to thank mr. cuellar for his fine performance. i appreciate that. and thank you, mr. chairman. i ask unanimous consent misstatement go on the record that we can move expeditiously to questions. i have just a question for dr. humphreys. when you are comparing the civilian -- if you use that term in the different codes of encryption, what is the cost differential? you know, if law-enforcement ones in print and more common is cost prohibited or would that be a better track to take to differentiate it so there is more encryption is spoofing? >> perhaps if there's recommendations the uav usi has recommended, they would like to use saddam receivers, gps receivers for military uses into
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the civilian uavs that they can be protected from hacking attacks. the trouble i see what that is twofold. one coming as the price goes up because there's only a couple companies that can build these receivers and so the price would much more than doubled. and that is going to hurt this nation industry, which is sensitive to price, especially for smaller devices. and second, i do feel of the logistics working out. these are hot items. you would not want than proliferating among civilians and end up in the wrong hands. and you wouldn't necessarily want to distribute the keys on a short-term basis because that is cumbersome for the owners. ..
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spoofing attack. >> thank you. mr. chairman, i yield back my time. >> thank you ranking member. we recognize the general aid from new york. mr. clark. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i think our ranking member -- i thank him for filling in. dr. humphrey, i find the whole topic as fascinating. i serve on infrastructure protection. this is quite fascinating. one of the questions i have, and i've had this quite froactly as -- frequently as we advance our technology logical know how whether it pays in outset to bake into our technology ways in which we can counter act disruption or if need be, disarm
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and disable the vices that are developed. and it would seem to me, no knowing what we know that the next generation would be sensitive enough that if any spoofing activity were to take place, something could be banked into the twos that would protect us. what do you say about that? >> i agree with that. i would recommendly whole heartly efforts to bake into antispoofing techniques. problem would be -- without taking the issue seriously enough. we have a great number in our air space which continue to be just as the one we took down. there are techniques, simple tech vehicles that while not foul proof, they can increase
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the resistan to a spoofing attack significantly. i recommend in my written testimony a long list of these techniques. some simple some not. antispoofing is hard. there's no question and easy and cheap slowings. there are reasonable cost effective measures we take in the short term to bake it in, as you say. >> you also stated in your view of the problem, should be solved as the sourced at the gps satellite themselves. do you believe that this is likely to occur? >> so i did say that on an interview. i guess i despair at the kinds of institutional changes that would be required looking for funding or political will to bring that about in the very best scenario, it might take five years before we see any protection.
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i'm becoming more pessimistic we can solve this problem at the gps saturday light i suppose had there are more grassroots approach with the uav within the navigation system is more reasonable and practical. >> you recommended that dhs submit to funding development and implementation of a authentication signature in the forthcoming signals. how did the hs respond to the recommendation and do you think the agency will make will the suggested changes? >> so this is a long-term recommendation. as i said, i'm not saying it's going happen tomorrow or within five years. long-term. i would like the dhs to commit to funding this. the department of defense has indicated some willingness to implement a change to the civil gps signal so they can be awe authenticated like putting a water mark on the $20 bill they
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don't have the funds. i believe it would fall to the dhs to fund something like this. >> in just listening to what you have had to say look at the rate of which the uavs are being produced. if you're estimated it make take about five years to get there, we could be talking about, you know, tens of thousand of uavs at that point in time, having been deployed at some level whether it's military, whether it's local law enforcement. so, you know, i want to thank you first of all for the work that you've done, the research and the capabilities that you have uncovered. but my concern is you know what you suggest we do right now. >> the suggestion i have right now are these grassroots
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approaches for fixing the uav without having permission of the department of the gps director at the air force. there are reasonable techniques you bake in the gps sever receivers and the entire navigation system while they don't prevent sophisticated attacks, they would sure make them harder. >> thank you very much. i yield back, mr. chairman. >> i thank you yes lady. you raise a point. -- i hope we can fix these. i ask you put the intreemtion the record. chair recognizes the gentleman from illinois, mr. davis. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i must confess, i am fascinated by this. i was sitting here thinking that we may have all of these things in the environment singing all around every place when you watch when you used to be
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science fiction. i'm not sure this is much fiction now as it use to be. but i was trying to figure out the utilizationization and utility, what's the usefulness of the continuous development of the technology? >> it's a great question. there are in fact, a lot of great uses to which these drones can be put. i want to use them in the research so we can do better detection of interference sources in the gps radio ban. i'll confess also. i'm looking forward to a day when i get a taco delivered to my doorstep from a done that days takeout deliver i are. other types can be in monitor border helping to surveil difficult situations like a swat
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attack against somebody who is got as hostile situation ongoing. i see these as being very useful. i would not want to put the brakes on the plan faa has to roll them out in the future. i would simply want to hold the faa to the language of the act passed back in february so we is safely accelerate the adoption of these uav into the national air space. >> i guess since we have a great concern about terrorism, terrorist, terrorist plots, that it would give us the opportunity to stay a step ahead of individuals our countries, even, that might have other kinds of motivation for further development. >> that's true. if you put the brakes on the industry now, you end up putting
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at a disadvantage compared to other countries. the uav revolution is coming, and we might as well be on the cutting edge of it. how do we balance -- i'm thinking of all of the concerns that we have right now about money and expenditures, and, you know, when we cut $25 billion out this, we deny people food stamps or, you know, i think people having so much difficulty simply having shelt are or a place to live, how do we balance the utilizationization of our resources resources in terms what it would take to further develop the technology we're talking about versus how do you feed the hungry or? >> well, it's a good question. i guess i would point out in
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many cases the uav would save money. austin police department the lieutenants talking to me they were telling it cost $5 million to buy a helicopter for man use and only maybe $50,000 on uav. they're on a tight budget. i understand where they are locking at them to save money. it would frees up budgets for other worthy uses for the funds. it's going to be a dynamo for innovation and jobs a healthy domestic uav industry. my main contention is let's let it go ahead but let's be vigilant to the uses they are put and ensure the peoples' privacy and security is a top priority. >> well, let me thank you very much. i certainly support technology
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enforcement. i want to as balanced as we can. i commend you for your work. thank you very much. >> thank the gentleman. the chair now indulges the gentleman in texas for one question. >> one question. doctor, just real quickly. i appreciate the good work you have done. there are first of all the military type of drones uav and there is the hobby uav and the commercial uav would you say that? >> i think those are good broad classification yes. >> what you use is . >> personally it was an $80,000. >> was it a hobby? >> no. >> it wasn't? >> okay a hobbyist could use it, of course. it was a quite expensive for the average weekend hobbyiest. >> right. my u understanding is that most of the hobby uav do not have protection over radio signals and they can be easily taken
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over whether it's oiled ,000 or $5,000. my understanding is most commercial uav have encription the frequent frequency on hacking or spoofing would be difficult. >> the communication from the remote pilot might well be secure. it but the spoofing of the gps signals is not secure. and that's what we demonstrated. we were use the high end sophisticated uav. we were not using the do it yourself drone. >> my understanding is most of the commercial uav have the encription on it. and having it is very important because just like a member of the fbi person they were selling the encription keys and there was sort of things involved on that. wanted to -- appreciate the work. i wanted to make sure . >> they may have encription on the command and control link. they don't have encription on
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the gps navigation lang. >> those are the recommendation. >> i recommend we ensure uav exceeding 18 pounds have certified themselves as spoof resistance. i give a brief definition many any statement. i'm willing to entertain that definition in further research. >> thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. i thank the gentleman. let me reintegrate. that is we worked together very closely on getting these uav military dhs con on the border southwest border where they are needed and very valuable in securing the border. what we're talking about here today is the domestic use of uav which are not encrypted and vulnerable. there's no policy set forth in terms how we do deal with them the next couple of years are going to multiply the flownd. thousand. it's incumbent upon the
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department of homeland security in particular of the trotion plot to engage on the issue and come provide that security and policy. with that. i want to thank our witness dr. hum humphreys. it's been a pleasure to hear your intelligent testimony, but on a personal level to meet you as well. thank you for being sheer. >> all of you members of the subcommittee. , thank you. [inaudible conversations] chair now recognizes second panel and before i do that. i want ask unanimous consent they welcome a colleague and fellow texan kevin brady to introduce his local hometown sheriff. >> i thank you. i want to thank you you for the
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committee for allowing me the special privilege today. i'm pleased to be able to introduce the committee today not only constituent but a friend and incredible law enforcement officer who has hands on experience in the subject. chief deputy william mcdaniels sheriff office. texas sheriff office has jurisdiction over the largest sub burden. it is one of the fastest growing counties in america. the only agency in texas that is currently used unmanned aerial views. in my view, it has tremendous potential for public safety for emergency response, for search and rescue, and at times during natural disasters such as the wild fires we experienced locally last year. chief mcdambisa daniel is decorated law enforcement office with an impressive career spanning many decades. he received a public safety law
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enforcement chief award for excellence, two awards in that arena, while serving the united states air force, he received a air force accommodation medal, at 15th air force combat crew excellence award. he's graduate of fbi national academy in quantity quo, virginia. i know, the chief's testimony will be insightful in helpful in an emerging issue. so thank you for allowing me to introduce the good friend today. chief mcdaniel, thank you for being here. >> thank you mr. brady for the kind introduction. and with that. i'm going introduce the rest of the panel. director of civil aviation issues for the u.s. accountability office. he's a member of the -- and policy analysis studies, related to civilian aviation issues
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including safety environment, air traffic control, airport development and international aviation. prioring to come it in 1918 served on the faculty of university of california in university of illinois. i note that from mr. davis my colleague. in addition he served on the nation commission on terrorist attacks upon the united states on are the 9/11 commission. on the aviation in transportation security team from 2003 to 2004. and let me see here in my notes. i apologize. our last witness. last but not least. mrs. amy is the legal counsel of the electronic previous information center. her work includes issues of national security government
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surveillance, digital. she is the moderator of the weekly twitter based privacy discussion and assists with epics internet and social media web presence. prior to joining that, i don't -- she graduated from new york law school where she pursuits studies on media law, technology and the first amendment. we appreciate you being here today to bring up the important privacy issuings we see domestic use of the uav. so with that, now the chairman recognizes mr. dillingham for his opening statement. >> thank you mr. chairman, members of the subcommittee. my statement today discusses three areas. first, an overview of the findings and recommendation from our 2008 study that focus on some of the key challenges to safe integration of unmanned aerial system in the national
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air space. second, dhs's role in the domestic use of the system, and third, our observation on emerging issues. in 2008, the four key challenges we identify to integration were the ability of uas to sense and avoid other aircraft, ensuring unsphwrupted command and control, the development of standards to ensure the uav be establish safety, reliability and performance requirements, and finally, to ensure that the regulations being developed for unmanned aircraft be equal to existing regulations for manned aircraft. to address these challenges, they developed a matter of congressional and three recommendation two for faa and one for dhs. we recommended faa issue a comprehensive uav program plan and establishes processes to obtain available operational data. we have closed those
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recommendation as being implemented. we suggested that congress create an organization within faa to coordinate government and private sector efforts to address the safety challenges. and we also recommend that the tsa exam the potential security related to uas and take appropriate action. behave closed matter for congressional consideration and the recommendation to tsa. it's not being implemented. regard dhs role with them in the national air space, dhs is one of several partner agencies of faa joint planning and development office, that is working to integrate uaf. faa has granted custom and border protection to operate the ten uaf to support the national security issue along the u.s. northern and southern borders. it's providing support other other federal and state agencies in carrying out their missions. as a chairman described in the
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opening statement, tsa acting in the role lead agency for transportation security, in 2004, issues an as provide i are which indicated that the federal government was concerned that uaf could be mod fighted and used to attack key assets and infrastructure in the united states. neither dhs nor tsa has taken any significant action to implement the 2008 recommendation to exam the potential security implication of uaf. according to the tsa official in 2008, an again as recently as this month, they believe that the agency current practices are sufficient no additional actions are needed. with regard to emerging issues, our ongoing work is identified three key issues that warrant further consideration. first, is private sei, as it relates to collection and use of surveillance data. members of congress, civil
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liberty organization and civilians have expressed concern at the potential increase use in the national air space by law enforcement or commercial purposes has potential private sei implications. currently, no federal agency has specific statute story responsibility to regulate privacy matters relating to uaf. stakeholders told us by developing guidelines that are appropriate for the appropriate use of uaf of could in fact preclude abuses of the technology and negative public perception of the potential uses that are planned for these aircraft. a second emerging issue is owners of model aircrafts do not require permission or license from faa to operate their aircraft. as chairman described in the opening statement, a man in massachusetts pleaded guilty for plotting to use a large remote control model aircraft filled with c4 plastic explosive to attack the pentagon and the u.s. capitol.
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this kind of incident highlights the potential for model aircraft to be used to cause harm. a third emerging issue is a potential for jamming of gps signal that control uat. in a jamming scenario, the aircraft would probablily lose the ability to determine whether it is locate and in which direction it is traveled. low cost things are ready available on the internet. mr. chairman, rehabbing has been, and member of the subcommittee. we plan to issue a full report to the subcommittee and other committees on the congress on the uaf work later in the fall. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you for the good work. chair recognizes another fellow texan. chief mcdaniel. >> thank you, sir. the sheriff office is the seventh largest in the state of texas and is responsible for law enforcement services for a county that covers over 1,000 square miles.
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it has a population of over 471,000. as indicated, it is an extremely fast growing county. the county is diverse, in geography as well as population, with the extremely urban area with a very dense population on our southern border with houston and harris county. to an extremely rural area in the northern portion of our county. the sheriff office is committed to protecting the lives and property of the people we serve, and since my sheriff took office in 2005, we have sought out new and better technology to enhance both our efficiency as well as our effectiveness in carrying out our public safety mission. i believe the uav systems now available to public safety agencies are exactly the type of technology that will makes more successful. it is not just a law enforcement tool, but a public safety asset
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that can now be used by fire departments, emergency management offices and other government tal universities as well. the sheriff office has owned a shadow hog uav since december 2011. we have not used it for an operational mission to day, we see the benefit and the mission profile for swat operations, high-risk warrants with locating lost persons, manhunts, hazard material spills, fire scene, traffic accident investigations, or traffic management and observation due hurricane evacuations. we did not obtain this for the purpose of surveillance. i do not believe small uav such our shadow hawk are particularly designed or suited for that type of mission. the faa has expertise in the
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aeronautical field, they don't have the necessary public safety mission experience to effectively oversee this type of operational environment. if federal oversight is necessary, it would seem appropriate to establish it under the department of home land security. different from the air gnat call component, the faa would continue to manage dhs would manage the operational aspect by setting an enforcing operational guidelines and procedures, belier a data base relating to the uav, agencies using them mission results and act as resource in information tool for current and interested public safety agencies. current case law supports the use of air assets by law enforcement, and i do not believe it is necessary to introduce new legislation that would so veer -- severely
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restrict the uav effectivenesses. i courage you to recognize as an important tool for public safety agency. i believe in this technology and the mission of protecting the citizens of my county, my state, and this nation. >> thank you, chief. we recognize. >> mr. chairman, and members of subcommittee. thank you for the opportunity to testify today. my name is amy i'm associate at electronic privacy sei information center a nonpartisan research organization in dc focused on a public attention on emerging issues and privacy and civil liberties. we thank you for holding the hearing today. drones greatly increase the capacity for domestic surveillance. they are specifically designed to carry highly invasive
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technology. they are cheaper too buy and maintain. they can operate undetected in urban and rural informations. sensitive information is particularly vulnerable to unlawful access. as briefsly discussed they are not secure. observed in comments faa on drone test site location. it pose a threat. hackers are not only able to gain control they are able to intercept the data feeds transmitted by a drone. we recognize that drone technology has very positive uses in the united states. it can be used to monitor for environment use. help prevent the spread of we'res. however, there are substantial legal and constitutional issues involved in the deployment of aerial drones by federal agencies. as drone technology becomes cheaper it will become more wide spread and the threat to privacy will be more substantial.
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ethic supports compliance with currents federal law for the deployment of drone technology and limitation for federal agency and other organizations who obtain. the current state of the law is insufficient to address the threat. legislation is needed to protect against the use of drones surveillance tools and to provide for redress against drone operators who fail to comply with the protection. congress directed the faa to develop regulation encourage wide spread of drone in the u.s. the fourth coming regulations -- public and private drone operators including dhs and the custom and border bureau. earlier this year in a formal petition to the faa they urged the agency to conduct a rulemaking to implement the rulemaking for privacy drones. it was joined by more than 100 organizations, experts and member of the public who believed the privacy rules were necessary before they entered

Tonight From Washington
CSPAN July 19, 2012 8:00pm-11:00pm EDT

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TOPIC FREQUENCY Iowa 21, Faa 18, Us 12, U.s. 11, Uav 10, Florida 9, United States 8, Dr. Heller 8, Uaf 7, Dr. Leath 7, Alexander 6, Dr. Twigg 6, Dhs 6, North Carolina 6, Tennessee 6, Tsa 6, Indiana 5, Dr. Humphreys 5, Fbi 5, Unc 4
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